About American Policing

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 07/12/2016 at 10:27 • Filed to: None

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Not much room for the perps in the backseat.

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Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 10:33

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They, could, however, use a trailer like this.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 07/12/2016 at 10:36

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With bars on the windows...

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 10:39

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Some modifications would be necessary, yes.

Urambo Tauro > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 10:41

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Smart paddy wagon.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 10:41

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He lost me at “machine guns” and a couple of other points. Mostly on target, but disjointed. Why are basic literacy on topic of interest and writing structure so hard?

Milky > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 10:45

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Detroit has many of its own problems but not having terrible cops seems to be something its good at. This may be part of that:

The Detroit Police Department has one of the largest percentages of black officers of any major city police department, reflecting current overall city demographics.

This too:

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http://www.metrotimes.com/Blogs/archives…

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 10:49

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I thought it read pretty well. He covered a great many points. Still, he makes the point that I had already reached, which is that the policing is one face of a democratic society. If we don’t like what we see, we need to look inward and upward.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Urambo Tauro 07/12/2016 at 10:50

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I had it explained to me recently that the term paddy wagon is a slur against the Irish coined in New York City back in the day.

Tekamul > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 10:50

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I think he used ‘machine gun’ because that was the term used by the source he pulled the info from (The NYT).

Would using the term automatic weapon make it better?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Milky 07/12/2016 at 10:55

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Woah. I’d have sacked him if I were chief. But (former) Det. Weekley no doubt belongs to a union...

Thanks for sharing that.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tekamul 07/12/2016 at 10:58

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If you’re describing fully automatic M16s (unlikely, but I know some entities have them), then machine gun is only *mostly* wrong. If you’re using the term “machine gun” to describe an AR15, you need to have the stupid smacked out of you. No, “automatic weapon” would not be better, because it’s the current hobbyhorse of alleged journalists to elide differences between modes of fire and what is legal and what isn’t exactly so.

Urambo Tauro > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 11:00

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Wow, I had no idea!

I thought the term fell out of use because it sounds kind of playful, and it’s more proper to say something like “patrol car” or “prison bus”. The more you know...

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tekamul 07/12/2016 at 11:01

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Incidentally, if he used the term “machine gun” because his source did, it reveals the article to be more of a patchwork than he should have made apparent. The mark of solid and consistent writing is to actually homogenize your material and not shop paragraphs from different sources.

Berang > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 11:02

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The source they cite says “machine guns” too, so they’re just quoting another source.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Berang 07/12/2016 at 11:05

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Somebody else avers that that source was the NYT. The Grey Lady’s sort of “the color of a rotten dead” these days.

RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) > Berang 07/12/2016 at 11:05

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so we quote sources quoting sources and play he said she said until accountability and accuracy are shown out the window? all media is slowly turning into gawker.

Tekamul > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 11:07

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So what’s the catch all term for M-16s, M-14s, and .45 ACPs? It’s not assault rifle, because the ACP is a pistol.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 11:08

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Well, it wasn’t just *coming for* the Irish, it was also a hallmark of Irish cops coming to the scene. By and for the Irish. Not necessarily offensive in any way to observe that there are a lot of Irish cops. It seems kind of tendentious to assume that all nicknames relating to stereotype are slurs per se.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Milky 07/12/2016 at 11:09

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How dare he get worked up about people shouting for “dead cops”, I suppose.

RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 11:10

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Sacked for an emotional Facebook post after the worst attack on police in US history? While people that associate with the group he is angry with have themselves a week of shooting at,killing, and publicly calling for the deaths of more officers? Poor judgement sure but an offense worthy of ending a man’s career?

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tekamul 07/12/2016 at 11:23

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...what? My point is that “automatic weapon” as constructed to include semi-autos is an intentionally vague use so as to conflate any and all weapons without a manual cycle with the scariest of the breed - things which require special dispensation to own in the first place. A huge number of self-defense carry guns are semi-auto. There is less separating them from a DAO (dual action only - one trigger pull, one shot, but technically manual cycle) carry weapon than an NFA-limited weapon like an actual M16. A Mossberg semi-auto 22LR hunting rifle has more in common purpose with a bolt-action Mosin Nagant with a scope than an M16, and the Mosin will cause significantly more lethal wounds... and furthermore, before its broad adoption to other purposes, was a frontline military weapon. “Automatic weapon” means that we consider the Mossberg to be the very son of Satan and the Mosin harmless - at least until the next meme is unwrapped.

Let me be clear: there is no reason to use the vague term “automatic weapon” unless acceding to a nonsensical shibboleth that all weapons without a manual cycle are somehow overtly militaristic and unsuitable for self defense, training, hunting, and other use. Semi-auto is not full auto. Most semi-auto guns are not reliable if hacked up to be otherwise.

Berang > RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) 07/12/2016 at 11:25

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They’re writing an article, not a book. Explaining the lineage and nomenclature of firearms might be interesting, but ultimately it’s not the point of the article.

Milky > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 11:30

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I went to that BLM protest on Friday (the one mentioned in the post) and the worst thing I heard chanted was “no justice, no peace”. Very far from “dead cops”. Obviously I didn’t hear everything but it was civil ... for a protest.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Milky 07/12/2016 at 11:36

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There were some *really* bad events when they were getting rolling - very poorly managed message. Forgive me if I don’t believe that spirit to have been fully expunged at this point from the movement - though civility is, well, civilized.

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > Tekamul 07/12/2016 at 11:54

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M-16 's and M-14 's are select fire weapons that are generally available only to the military. There are a small number of these available on the civilian market, but to purchase one requires filing a $200 application with the BATFE* and the rifle itself will cost on the order of $15,000 or more**. The .45 ACP is a cartridge (not a pistol) that was designed by John Browning for use in his prototype semi-automatic pistol that evolved into the Colt 1911. There is no catch all term for them as they are very different things.

* This is a vastly oversimplified explanation of what is required to purchase items that fall under the purview of the National Firearms Act (NFA).

** $15,000 for an M-16 is a price I saw mentioned in an article several years ago that may or may not have been accurate at the time. Pricing for fully automatic weapons is prohibitively high because updates to the NFA have resulted in the sale or transfer of fully automatic weapons between civilians being banned unless that weapon was produced and registered with the BATFE before May 19, 1986.

Tekamul > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 12:03

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Huh? No interest in using something as a scare tactic, just trying to be accurate. Some of the equipment in the Pentagon data release are described as fully auto.

Also, this phrase, “unless acceding to a nonsensical shibbolet” does not leave the impression you’re hoping.

Milky > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 12:05

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Do you mean in Detroit specifically? The only negative thing I can even find is four people being arrested for making threats on police on social media ... which wasn’t the BLM protest.

And they were arrested.

You can believe whatever you want, doesn’t mean its accurate.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 12:07

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I had a great conversation with someone on here yesterday that showed the stats the crime is down drastically since, say 25 years ago.

I think the absolute biggest issue in the majority of these cases is the lack of prosecution for OBVIOUSLY bad results, especially those on camera.

Shoot a guy in the back while he’s running away? Yeah that’s murder not an oops on the job. Choke a guy to death with a documented “against the rules” maneuver? That’s murder not an oops. Two of you holding a guy to the pavement and you shoot him while you have a knee on his back pinning him? That’s murder.

These things I’m saying does not mean I don’t also support cops, my sister is a Sheriff’s Deputy Sergeant and I’m incredibly proud and supportive of her.

You can both be supportive of good LEO’s and also call for better prosecution of bad LEO’s.

RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) > Berang 07/12/2016 at 12:10

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Nobody is asking for a history lesson just a little accuracy. A semi automatic firearm is not a machine gun nor is it an automatic rifle.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Tekamul 07/12/2016 at 12:10

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It’s more excusable in that case, but barely more informative than “weapons”... unless one is trying to forward the narrative that “military weapons are automatic, so by their nature these weapons (whether fully auto or not) are military grade and shouldn’t be in the hands of non-military”. Regardless whether the weapon in question is a basic bitch 1911 or ordinary Glock. AUTOMATIC BAD.

What impression? If one accedes to saying “automatic weapons” all the time and in every case because it’s what all the cool people are doing, regardless of what their motives are or whether it makes sense, then it’s... unwise.

Phillipsaur > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 12:14

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That's the car that Casey Niestat made fun of that one time and everyone got mad at him lol

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 12:17

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The issue is with the criminals. If we establish a more respectful, higher class of criminal, then the issue of policing will fix itself.

See video: Black guy pulled over by white police man. Doesn’t get shot or even a ticket. Not that difficult!!!!

Berang > RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) 07/12/2016 at 12:20

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There are full auto M16s though. I doubt that’s what the police were buying, but it’s conceivable a mistake would be made easily by somebody who doesn’t know there’s a bunch of different types of M16.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Urambo Tauro 07/12/2016 at 12:22

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Surprised me, too.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 07/12/2016 at 12:26

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“Slur” was my choice of word there. I was looking for something that connoted something not flattering, whilst staying away from racist or ethnic, or whatever. I think it’s a worthwhile exercise to examine what we say and how we say it. That there are — or were — a lot of Irish coppers is certainly a fair observation to make.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) 07/12/2016 at 12:29

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What’s his next emotional outburst going to look like? Will it be caught on his body camera?

What “group” do you refer to?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/12/2016 at 12:31

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Well played, Sir. The examples you site are a result of POOR TRAINING.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal 07/12/2016 at 12:38

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Copper took his ego out of the mix. That’s what we need more of.

We could use a more respectful, higher class of motorcycle rider in this country as well.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 12:39

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Oh absolutely, though one point I’d like to make about their comments on poor training and inconsistencies.

There HAS TO BE inconsistencies. Laws change state by state in our country, you can’t teach them all the same thing!!

Yes, general stuff can be consistent but you can’t make a blanket statement about how police officers should be trained when they’re subject to different rules.

I told my sister when she was still sitting around waiting on that Sarge title that she should come up here to Michigan for a job, and she said - what? and go through the academy again? No thanks!

If they would make someone with 10 years of experience go back through the academy imagine how different things are state by state.

Also, side note- wouldn’t it suck to not be able to move to a different state if you wanted to?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/12/2016 at 12:48

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I’m a teacher, and a cop’s job and mine bear some similarities. The big DIFFERENCE is that I do not have absolute power like a cop does. So I have to take my ego out of the mix if I want to be successful. Now, by successful , I mean, getting people to do what I need them to do. Sometimes, I get what I need, but it doesn’t look like I thought it should look.

Mario Woods is one of my favorite examples of piss-poor police training. Half of SFPD was out there with 25 cars and Dude was clearly in a confused state and must have weighed 95 pounds soaking wet, and the only way SFPD could protect the public was by killing the guy?

Sure, the training varies in the 600-plus police academies (factoid stated by writer of article in original post) across the country, but attitudes and egos among American police are more common than I wish they were.

RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 13:04

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The group being BLM. I’m not saying they are responsible for the shootings because they aren’t. However, the shooters in all of the police shootings have expressed sympathy for or directly supported BLM during the shootings so its at least understandable why he reacted like that. 5 officers get killed 6 more wounded in one city, other cities have officers attacked and some killed and Facebook/instagram/etc are filled with BLM supporters calling for the murders of more police.

and a Facebook post is a far cry from murdering an unarmed civilian or beating someone.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 13:54

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Wow, I hadn’t heard this one and I am amazed none of the officers had tasers. I know my sister carries one and to enforce the severity of it’s effects they even make them get tased in order to carry it.

Sounds like that guy was on something giving all the bean bag rounds had almost zero impact on the guy. An officer shouldn’t have to put themselves at risk of being killed with a knife to tackle him, I’m pretty sure a taser would have solved the problem in that scenario without killing him. Emphasis on the non-lethal methods needs to be brought back. I know only NJ has a restriction on police using tasers, but they can carry them and i didn’t bother to look up the restriction.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > RedlineZ bought an SV (And is getting rid of the z) 07/12/2016 at 14:13

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I think you are well to be concerned about the emotional stress facing Ofc. Weekley or any other police officer. The Dallas shooter has launched our racial crisis in this country into the realm of terrorism and it didn’t need to be that way, but for police attitudes over generations. Black Lives Matter do not want violence and to be referred to as a “piece of shit” for wanting to be treated fairly by the police calls that officer’s judgment into question. They don’t call it The Struggle for nothing.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/12/2016 at 14:17

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A four-foot-l0ng T-shaped plastic implement born by four cops at once would pin the guy well enough to tase or disarm him. Too many agencies are too quick to grab their pistols. I know good people who are cops as well.

I’m way not a cop hater, but there needs to be a sea change in how we police in this country, across the board. And the world may have become too ugly for that, and it may be too late.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 14:40

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I agree the emphasis really needs to swap over to non-lethal. I dunno about a plastic implement, but zap the guy before you shoot him!

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/12/2016 at 15:02

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In the case of Mario Woods, they'd have had a difficult time getting a Taser to work on him.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/12/2016 at 16:37

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I just watched the video, and that was the first time I’ve seen it. I see no reason why they couldn’t have hit him with a taser.

Example, look at the size of this dude and how he just DROPPED when hit with the taser, sure he was flailing around and needed plenty of guys to finally get him under control, but there were plenty of guys present and ready to help detain Mario Woods. I know this guy didn’t have a knife, but he does take a swing at the officer right when he walks up. Tasers can be VERY effective and typically have no lasting effects.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 07/12/2016 at 17:59

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Woods was wearing several layers of clothing, which also, I think, lessened the effectiveness of the bean bags.

I think you and I are on the same page.